mcnireny whose latest work "the juice" on sale now. political analyst and former dnc communications director karen finney and buzz feed editor in chief, ben smith. after trouncing his republican opponent in last week's election, president obama was back to the business of running the country this week, touring damage from hurricane sandy, meeting with labor and business leaders and this morning, sitting down with top congressional leaders to begin negotiations over the so-called fiscal cliff. >> our challenge is to make sure that, you know, we are able to cooperate together, work together, find some common ground, make some tough compromises build some consensus to do the people's business. >> a chastened gop finds itself in a state of reassessment. interrupting that was the ghost of christmas past, mitt 47%

romney who on a conference call with donors attributed his loss to gifts bestowed by president obama. >> what the president -- president's campaign did was focus on certain members of his base toolgs, give them extraordinary financial gifts from the government, and then work very aggressively to turn them out to vote. >> despite the fact that they supported his positions throughout the entire campaign, a frightened herd of republicans trampled over each other in a stampede away from romney's remarks. intent on selling a friendlier more compassionate gop, they included bobby jindal who was best known for totally blowing the republican response to the 2009 state of the union. >> good evening and happy mardi gras. i'm bobby jindal, governor of la louisiana. >> jindal has been the lead voice in the romney dissing, self-critical ameliorated gop. >> i absolutely reject that notion that description.

i think that's absolutely wrong. >> this is completely not helpful. this is not where the republican needs to go. we need to stop being the dumb party. we need to offer smart, conservative, intelligent ideas and policies. that's how we win elections. we don't win elections insulting voters. >> a word to the wise or the wise-ish, throwing mitt romney off the deep end is the easy part. fixing the deeper problems may take some actual work. karen finney, now, grant eed mi romney's comments were objectively speaking pretty stupid. >> yeah. >> very telling it's this week that bobby jindal is saying we need to stop being the dumb party. as if there wasn't a lion's share of support for mitt romney up until this point. >> there wasn't dumb party stuff going on before. this is not a cosmetic problem. this is isn't like let's put a fresh coat of paint and put a new message on it and we're good to go. you have the main gop saying the herd of black people came in and

voted and don't know where they're from, the state of maine. ryan saying we didn't expect the urban turnout which we know what that really means. so there is a deeper problem and romney is not the only one espousing some of that kind of language. i think what they're realizing is they've got to at least start to talk not like the dumb party which is why we heard the word revenue finally coming out of their mouths in the negotiation. >> i would like to play a clip from "the daily show" last night where in jon stewarts talks about gifts and what they mean. >> what did obama give us? bag of weed. that was nice. oh. food stamp cozy. contraception variety pack. very thoughtful on there. codan. pinata filled with green cards. >> so josh, what stewart is

doing there is a comedic takedown, perhaps, of the notion of the makers versus the takers. but in some ways that has been a very dominant narrative inside conservative circles and letting that go is going to take a lot of work. >> i think so. romney's biggest gift has been the gift he keeps giving to us and journalists. in a backhanded sort of way gave a gift to his party because it allowed bobby jindal and susana martinez -- >> marco rubio chris christie. >> basically everybody, who wants to move forward to a new iteration of the republican party to have that break, move forward, to show what they're against and as you said the challenge now is to show what they're for. maybe it's a little more tax revenue if it's packaged the right way. maybe it's immigration reform. that's going to be tougher than smacking mitt romney down for dumb comments. >> i don't know, ben. as much as there are 2016 benchers, to say susanna martinez, marco rubio, you know, bobby jindal out there saying

this is wrong, we can't bes the dumb party, karl rove saying double down, conservatives need not give up conservative principles. rush limbaugh questioning bobby jindal's stance. there is significant, i think, schism within the republican party and the question remains who is going to win? >> i mean, i think, you know, it's -- parties are good at reinventing them sls. good at telling voters what they want to hear. this is their basic job. the pivot on immigration with sean hannity thinking things over the day after the election and deciding, you're going to be shocked how thorough, how fast that is. the anti-immigration voices in the republican party have always been loud and overestimated in their numbers. there's always been a pro immigration wing of that party like business. i think that's going to be a place you see a hard, fast pivot. >> couple of things historically. the 2005 conversation that we had about immigration reform, destroyed any hope that the republican party had getting

back the latino vote in 2008 because it's not just that the language and the tone was so disrespectful. people remember that, right. so the republicans enter into this conversation with a trust deficit because people suspect like you're saying the right thing, but if give the chance, that's not what you really believe. >> the person who gets it done now will be barack obama, a democratic president, not mitt romney. >> that's the problem. >> a person of color. let's be honest. only deepens the racial divides when you have that kind of language. >> marco rubio will be standing next to him when they sign that bill. >> you're right. this is something republicans could have had a lead hand in crafting and now they're going to look like they're playing catch-up. to karen's point, jay, when we talk about the trust deficit and how much americans think oh, the republicans have changed, everything's different now, this is haley barbour, i have to play this sound, this is haley barbour at the republican governors association conference in las vegas on wednesday. let's take a listen. >> we've got to give our

political organizational activity, you know, a very serious -- proct togethology ex. we need to look everywhere is my point. >> seven-second pause and what he comes up with is a proctology exam. >> probably a good place to look. >> you know, i think it's kind of ironic that romney should be the instrument for the party, the republican party suddenly shifting leftward in a sense because romney came in six years ago as a moderate -- almost a liberal republican, a moderate, steadily moved to the right and this republican primary process is so brutal and inevitably skews the whole conversation to the right and i still don't quite understand how they're going to get past that and get past the fact that the huge part

of the coalition are people who are exclusionary and who are social conservatives. >> look at their voting base, it's still like southern white male. >> can we pause for a second to appreciate just the -- haley barbour from mississippi is like the reformist edge of the republican party. >> calling for a party-wide -- >> he wants the political operation, the tactics different. good luck running into him at the dca, wiping the mustard off his hands -- >> wow. that's really painting a picture of him. >> you know, right after 2008, when people like us were having this exact conversation, the republican party has to change, haley the one that said, no, actually, we lost a close election wait for the mid terms and we'll come back. we don't have to change too much. our field program was terrible. our data was terrible. but there's a real argument -- we should do cosmetic stuff but i don't think he's talking about a leftward lurch. >> but in 2005 when howard dean implemented the 50 state strategy, rove saying this week we need a 50 state strategy,

part of what they're missing it wasn't just about more people on the ground, better data, better systems, all of that we put in place. but, you know, dean's thing was you have to show up and ask people for their vote. it is a sign of respect. the republicans don't even show up for that extra 47%. >> but even independent of that, there is a reality, michael steele talking about the number of, you know, latin -- latinos that turn 18 every week. there is an understanding -- michael steele may not be at the heart of the republican party in terms of are where they're moving they have a serious problem if they are going to get past 2016. >> the failure to be per served of the champion of the middle class, i'm not sure the republican party will ever be seen as champions of the middle class. a lot of talking to be done about the elephant stampede. after the break, however, as

tensions escalate in the middle east, concerns are growing that the violence could spill over into other parts of the region. how real is the risk of full-blown war? we will ask former assistance secretary of state jamie rubin next on "now."

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no government would tolerate a situation where it nearly a fifth of its people live under a constant barrage of rockets and missile fire. and israel will not tolerate this situation. i hope that hamas and the other terror organizations in gaza got the message.

if not, israel is prepared to take whatever action is necessary to defend our people. >> that was israeli prime minister benjamin netanyahu in a press conference yesterday as bombings continued between israel and hamas in gaza. today the conflict is rapidly escalating. a hamas rocket struck north of jerusalem this morning and rockets landed in southern tel aviv for the first time in 20 years. israel is now amassing troops along the border with gaza and put 30,000 army reservist troops on alert. egyptian prime minister herb m candill visited and had this to say -- on behalf of the egyptian government and president we have come to stand with the palestinians. palestine is the heart of the arab and muslim world and the body is not healthy while the heart is sick. israel agreed to a brief cease-fire as the egyptian prime minister visited gaza that collapsed after they accused hamas of resuming attacks.

at least 21 palestinians and three israeli citizens have been killed in the bombings. joining the panel is jamie rubin, former assistant secretary of state and spokesman for the state department during the clinton administration. thanks for joining us. >> good to be with you. >> help us get a little context here. how close are we to a full-blown war? >> well, i do think it's very like likely and possible in the coming days we will have what you call a ground war. it's possible the israelis will feel it necessary to enter into gaza with the intended house-to-house type fighting of a ground incursion and that will be a war. it will be a limited war and a limited location. but i think we are very close to that. >> i think to a lot of people who have been watching israel, it comes as a surprise, the assumption would be if israel had any military conflict it would be with iran and look where we are now. i guess i want to get your read on how this all started?

during the break i said how much do you think this has to do with the fact that netanyahu is facing an election, maybe in january, and i want to read this "new york times" op-ed which asks -- what do you make of that? >> i think that's a fair point. it's a fair point. the editorial board of the "new york times" points out the world would be less likely to condemn israel. we don't have peace negotiations. that's a simple fact. there's lots of blame to go around. the prime minister's office certainly bears some of it. the palestinians bear a huge

chunk. the united states hasn't been able to play the traditional role of brokering peace agreements between the two sides. and the conduct of the regional leaders, again, is not such that frankly the palestinian issue hasn't been on the front burner for many, many months as the war in syria has taken attention away, as the revolution in egypt, et cetera. this is a back-to-to the future situation where the issue that's been there all along, that hasn't received a lot of attention, but rockets have been going from gaza into israel many weeks and months now and a certain point was reached it was deemed intolerable. >> let's talk about the balance of power here, because egypt has, obviously, always been a player to some degree, much better relations with efwipts and have been able to expert pressure. we were discussing this earlier. we do not have that as much anymore given the fact that the new muslim brotherhood is

basically in cahoots with hamas, the egyptian prime minister says egypt is standing by the people of gaza in their pain. that radically changes the u.s. calculus in the region or how much we can actually do. >> yeah. i don't think it changes our objectives but i think it changes what we can accomplish. the united states doesn't talk to hamas. so in the past, the way we've been able to promote potential cease-fires or agreements between the israelis and hamas is through the good offices of the egyptian president mubarak and his top intelligence officer mr. soul manny who's now passed from the scene. this traditional methods prior to the arab spring with the so-called dictators and auto crates, we knew how to operate. we knew what levers to pull, who would have the most influence on which players. but as you correctly point out, the muslim brotherhood and hamas come from the same ideological

tradition, hamas is an offshoot of the muslim brotherhood, so the egyptian president is not even close to an interlocker between israel and the palestinians. arguably he's barely between hamas and the palestinians on the west bank led by mr. abbas. the players and devices we've used in the past are difficult to use. >> what sort of political pressure, though, is morsi feeling? they have an agreement with israel. it is a relatively new government, a new construct. he's being tested essentially. hit basically from both sides. what are those dynamics like? those domestic politics for the egyptians? >> what is new now is the political leadership of egypt has a direct and personal involvement with one party, not the palestinian authority, not israel, but the hamas movement in gaza. so there is a natural affinity

as stated by the prime minister and they are essentially on hamas' side ideologically. on the other hand, the president of egypt has made clear he doesn't want to throw over the israel/egypt peace agreement. how far can he go in supporting hamas without getting rid of that agreement or undermining it in a fundamental way? i expect him to go quite far. >> do you think the election affected the timing of this. did hamas step up its attacks to test the obama administration? did netanyahu act waiting for romney to be elected and not seeing that. >> it's hard to know. i can't get quite in their heads. in that part of the world they're aware of the american political calendar, as everyone is, and there is a sort of freezing of decision making in this period leading up to an american election. let's face it, a president romney would have been a very different approach. >> and probably preferred by netanyahu. >> it's seen that way.

paezble to that hamas is testing -- had waited to test until now. the truth is that the arab spring has many, many positive qualities for us in the west. the possibility that the people in that part of the world will be connected with their leadership. the elimination of the democracy deficit, all of those things. but one of the downsides to the arab spring is that we knew how to do business with many of these deck taters and autocrates, we knew how to conduct anti-iranian foreign policy to stop their nuclear development and the middle east peace process had been run under these dictatorships and authoritarian governments for some time. this is the new world and we're just going to have to see what leverage we have, if any, in this kind of a -- >> not only is it a new world but one that continues to be rapidly changing where the conflicts are reaching boiling

points. what do you think the relationship between net anyahu and obama is at this point? expressed his appreciation once again for obama's unequivocal, clear-sighted support for israel's right to defend itself. >> netanyahu is a very sharp character i can say from the experience i had when president clinton was not particularly a supporter of prime minister netanyahu there were times when that difference of political opinion came out, but when the chips are down -- >> a diplomatic way of putting it, jay. >> but when the trips were down, each side knows its operating for their country and not their party. look, it's going to have some discomfort. there will be some cracks made on the side and in the back rooms as these negotiations and discussions are going on. but right now, america is pursuing american foreign policy and israel pursuing its and these two individuals will try

to hold their tongues. >> it certainly is a situation that is fluid and we will continue to monitor. always great to have you. thank you so much to jamie rubin. >> as the cia launches its own probe into its intelligence officer, eric holder explains why the justice department waited to inform the white house about the petraeus brouhaha. >> we follow the facts. we do not share outside the justice department, outside the fbi, the facts of ongoing investigations. we made the determination as we were going through the matter, that there was not a threat to national security. had we made the determination that a threat to national security existed, we would, of course, made that known to the president and also to the appropriate members on the hill. >> while questions remain about the fbi investigation, larger concerns loom about security and privacy. we will discuss them when chris

hayes joins the panel just ahead. kathleen and susan are encouraging customers to shop local. they created ladies night in burbank, california, to boost sales staying open late. support your local retailers on november 24th for the third annual small business saturday. for more watch "your business" this sunday morning at 7:30 on msnbc. i'm only in my 60's... i've got a nice long life ahead.

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intelligence gathering teams at the cia sifting through ip addresses, e-mails and fake drop boxes have been turned against the intelligence community's top official. robert cohen writes in "the new york times" -- joining us now is msnbc's chris hayes, host up "up" for a segment we call up now. >> great to be here. >> great to have you, chris. as you termed it yesterday, we were talking about this, the snake eating its own tail. i almost said head. one of the things that is not discussed very much in terms -- both in the national news media and on the left is the expansion of surveillance powers that

occurred under president obama. >> there was a massive expansion in the wake of the 9/11 and that has been codified in law and legislative bat else that weren't even battles. the fights of reauthorization was the closest we got to a actual litigation of these issues an the good guys, the people on the right side of this policy side, lost largely. what we have seen is the massive expansion that was scandalous, considered scandalous, under the bush administration, has now been more or less largely codified and institutionalized by this administration and i think it was really interesting to everyone that when all this stuff first started coming out about the e-mails everyone was like, is there a warrant anywhere? anywhere? fourth amendment kind of -- >> private e-mails. >> and it turned out, they could actually go in there and read your e-mails three or four months before they need to do anything much legally. >> the san francisco chronicle editorial board says --

josh, the question is, i mean, will we ever go -- i mean it's like executive power is not something that ever goes back. it keeps being pushed forward and the expansion of the surveillance state who's going to put a stop it? >> presumably it would be a liberal democratic president with democrats in congress. one of the other things that is jarring and alarming about the petraeus scandal is that this was a kind of high-tech and cloak and dagger surveillance. this was mundane going through the e-mails and google has given or has had 20,000 requests from government just in the first six months. you look shocked by this. >> i just drank a hot cup of coffee. it's like so hot i can't tell you. burned my mouth. i think it's the cia trying to -- >> these huge numbers. >> oh, lord.

>> shows how broad the kind of surveillance is. >> there's a history here. when talking about a government official being ensnared in, you know,p. >>ing from -- snooping from the fbi. jay edgar hoover ran the country for decades because he was in everyone's business and could blackmail any other competitor in government. you know, in retrospect was kind of a constitutional crisis for the country we resolved would never happen again. what we saw here the professionalization of the fbi is such that didn't happen here, right? eric holder isn't like, we think, gathering up this foin and using it. >> the opposite. unambitious bureaucrat takes down the head of the cia. >> the head of the cia doesn't know what every celebrity has been known for many years. >> outrage he's not bitter -- >> e-mail is not prior to. and it hasn't been for so many years. i mean what we send out there on the internet is virtually public domain. >> hank paulson before congress

during sort of post-t.a.r.p. hearings and asked about his e-mail and he said i don't use e-mail. like that is not how i roll. you see the reason. >> i don't know that hank paulson. >> they dictate it to a secretary which turns out to be an effective way. >> andrew cuomo would not have left much of a paper trail. >> why isn't there -- the aclu has been the primary organization that's pushed back against the white house's expansion of this surveillance privileges. why is there not more discussion of this on the left? >> part of it is there's a democratic president and people have gotten deferential. i think what's interesting about this, we are seeing the reality of what this policy means in a concrete way that because it's secret is very hard in other circumstances to illustrate. i mean who knows, maybe fbi is reading my e-mail. i don't know that. the point is none of us sitting at this table actually knows the extent of the surveillance in terms of how it intrudes on our personal lives. without that knowledge it's hard to work people up into a

righteous furry about it. in this one case we see what it looks like if you start doing a drag net of random citizens' e-mails you're going to expose a lot of stuff. >> i also think this notion we've been successful in combatting terrorism and so, you know, people don't really know how they're being monitored an think if it's working, if it keeps stopping another 9/11 then it's, quote, worth it. >> put in one other thing too. traditionally democrats have been afraid to go up against the sort of thing for fear of being portrayed as weak against terror. maybe we've reached a point where that isn't going to happen. i don't think obama is viewed that way. psychically that's been something held back elected democrats from challenging the sort of thing. >> let me say there are practical arguments to produce the amount of surveillance we do. one of the problems be that these reporting has shown is that we do too much surveillance to sort through the information. at a certain point it becomes a practical problem and obstacle to doing effective espionage and effective security work if you just have too much information that's not --

>> stop reading jay mcinnereny's e-mail. >> not a big constituency you know for -- >> for privacy controls. >> most people assume that they're not being monitored. >> that's an assumption. >> most assume they're leading basically upright lives and maybe the terrorists out there are communicating by e-mail and the fbi -- >> or having illicit love affairs as the case may be which is sort of none of our business. >> i wonder if you start reading the e-mails of the washington press corps that likes to work themselves up, how many of those you will start seeing. >> every time there is a moment like this, which is to say, an inflection point, whether the petraeus scandal or i remember "the washington post" series which was incredible about top secret america and understand the extent to which we are being monitored when we talk about drones, drones and civilian life, it is -- it's scary out there. it is not something that is wildly under discussed. but we'll get more discussion -- >> more on sunday on our show.

>> tomorrow on the show. the show that you call "up." i have to say thank you to buzz feed's ben smith and our own chris hayes who are leaving the panel unfortunately. catch chris on "up kz form and sunday right here on a channel called msnbc at 8:00 a.m. eastern time. we have an update on the breaking news we brought to you a few moments ago. a local official tells nbc news there were two fatalities in the oil rig explosion in the gulf off the coast of louisiana. many stayed on the black elk energy platform to fight the blaze. the coast guard says four people were medevac'd out. the rig was not in production. we will continue to mon store the story. -- monitor the story. years of our government employees insurance company, or geico...as most of you know members it.congress. ...i propose savings for everyone! i'm talking hundreds here... and furthermore.. newscaster:breaking news. the gecko is demanding free pudding. and political parties that are actual parties!?

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constipated? yeah. mm. some laxatives like dulcolax can cause cramps. but phillips' caplets don't. they have magnesium. for effective relief of occasional constipation. thanks. [ phillips' lady ] live the regular life. phillips'. that is now time to officially launch the second american revolution. we do not want to succeed from the union to destroy the republic. but to restore it. we are succeeding from the

globalists. we are succeeding from world government anding me fwa banks. our country has already been taken over. i want to succeed back to the republic, back to our nation. the new world order has taken over. we're not fighting just corrupt politicians an a little political issue. we have serious, hard-core authoritarians. >> that was radio host alex jones calling for all 50 states to succeed from the union and start fresh from what he calls the declaration of the independence 2.0. comes on the heels of ron paul's 49 minute address farewell to congress where he asks two dozen questions why does the federal government restrict the drinking of raw milk? that just happened. we talk about how, you know, what's going to happen -- >> keep me down with not let me drink that raw milk. >> looking out for you, woman. >> okay. >> can this news day include ted

nugent and donald trump and all go off together. >> we have assurances from rick perry he is not going to succeed. a strain of american politics that is still quite radicalized. what were talking about earlier in the show some of these folks would consider themselves republicans, some maybe not. that's part of the challenge that party is going to have in trying to heal itself and bring itself together. those folks are definitely not democrats. it adds to racial division, economic division, and just, you know, broadening the divides rather than saying we lost, suck it up and keep going. >> or maybe let them have a little crazy tent all of their own. you know. like who says the tent has to be that big. >> anybody going to launch a revolution and crazy it's going to be alex jones. this kind of stuff happens after elections. people have a hard time grappling with defeat when living in a never never land of skewed poll numbers.

>> i thought about succeeding in 2004, but i -- >> you stayed. >> that is -- >> disturbing. >> it is disturbing. i will say i've always wanted to drink unpast rised milk because i think it's really good. i don't think that makes me a successionist. after the aftermath in au aurora, colorado, had this to say about some of the fire arms readily available for purchase. >> there are guns that are advertised on the internet 50 caliber rifle and says, able to bring down a commercial jetliner at a mile and a half. or, armor piercing bullets. last time i saw a deer wearing a bulletproof vest was a long time ago. >> it is not just the guns. it is, of course, also the people who buy them. we will discuss the complexities of the gun control debate next. having you ship my gifts couldn't be easier.

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what i want is a comprehensive strategy, part of it is, seeing if we can get automatic weapons that kill folks in amazing numbers out of the hands of criminals and the mentally ill, but part of it is going deeper and see if we can get into these communities and making sure we catch violent impulses before they occur. >> that was president obama during one of this year's presidential debates taking a nuanced approach to gun control. over the last year the country has witnessed more than its share of gun violence. lawmakers have take nonaction to resolve it. in february 17-year-old trayvon martin claimed by a neighborhood watchman. in july james holmes allegedly killed 12 and injured nearly 60 others at a movie theater. two weeks later six died during a shooting at a sikh temple in wisconsin and in chicago, shootings drove that city's murder rate up by 25%.

in a book former "new york times" reporter and editor craig whitney argues with 300 million guns across the country it would be impossible to get rid of them. quote -- joining the panel now i the author of "living with guns" craig whitney. thanks for coming on the show. >> thank you for having me. >> in the book you talk about both sides needing to come together. i will say, is the intransagainst not largely on the part of the nra. you write the nra wouldn't meet with you even though you are a member of the nra. >> that are certainly intransigent, but their intransagainst is strengthened by the impression they have that

the people that want gun control want to take people's guns away from them. it shouldn't be the object of gun control to take guns away from law-abiding people who have them perfectly legally. if we can tell the nra and convince them that the object that -- of gun control is not depriving people of the right to have firearms but to make it safer for everybody including them against gun violence, which is largely perpetrated by criminals. >> why is there this fear? if anything, public opinion has shifted in favor of the nra. a pew research poll shows in 1993, 57% of the country supported gun control and in 2012 after the aurora shootings 47% of the country supported gun control. the country is getting more lenient in terms of gun control laws. >> fear mongering, the nra does, is effective at raising funds. constantly in the past year before the election they were asking me and other members to

contribute money to construe that president obama would be defeated because he would take away not only our freedom to have guns but all our freedoms unless he didn't win. >> i think it's -- that alone the president's position on gun control to many on the left or people who would like to see stricter gun control or at least addressing the problem, president obama has basically done nothing. >> he's been the least progre progressive and least restrictive democrat in recent memory. he seems to want to run from this issue. politically i can understand why. i'm not sure where the impetus is going to come from to open this dialog if the democratic leaders are afraid of it. the nra has everything invested in this and the democratic party doesn't seem to be willing to step up. >> governor ed rendell the unofficial governor of "now" saying it takes leadership. this notion it's a mean more than reality you cannot win office if you take on the nra

but you can. ed rendell has been speaking about it. >> the leadership is more likely to come from the mayors. those are the people having to deal with the consequences more directly than anybody else. there was i think frank hunts did polling this year that showed that actually gun owners would favor responsible measures because if you're a responsible gun owner you don't want crazy people out there shooting people either. like it doesn't help anybody. polling wise, i think there are ways to open a conversation. somebody's got to lead the way and, you know, it doesn't help when you have darrell issa saying the reason that we -- this president allowed violence to happen in mexico was so that, you know, to get more support for the assault weapons ban. you know. >> mayor bloomberg seems to have take than lead. i don't know what he's going to do after he's no longer mayor. i don't agree with all his views about gun control or the idea that here in new york we have -- seem to have keeping guns out of

my hands and your hands is the way to control gun violence which i don't think it is. he doesn't seem to show any cowardes when it comes to challenging the nra. >> no. not at all. let's talk about the second amendment because every time you mention the word second amendment, you know, the internet starts going nuts. you write the framers did not set out to create a new individual constitutional rite. the language makes that clear. the amendment does not say the people shall have the right to keep and bear arms. it says, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed, recognizing and acknowledging and protecting an individual right that americans had already. a preexisting right. i'm not a constitutional law scholar by any means but what you seem to say is the constitution protects the right that is already preexisting, but whether or not that right should exbeist anymore is sort of up for debate. >> it existed in common law from the earliest days of the

colonies through the revolution and still exists today. i think the only way to get rid of it would be to abolish the second amendment which is never going to happen. >> that's not going to happen at all, given the fact that the supreme court has sort of moved more in the direction that is favorable to the nra. >> they recognize it is an individual right and i think they're right about that. but in 2008, the decision on handguns in the district of columbia, the main reason was self-defense in the home which it wasn't. the main reason for the second amendment back in the 18th century was to ensure that the states would be able to keep their militias and that would deter an attempt by power mad tyrant, head of the federal government, to steam roll the states. it was a political thing. >> apparently it has been re-elected. >> power -- >> i guess that was precious. >> i guess what it is, it comes down to, let's talk about sort of systemically, you know, what

needs to be done? we have to -- part of this is about communities and building communities and making them more whole. so that gun violence is not tolerated in any sense. you write collectly guns don't kill people, people do, be that is a fray rhrefrain from the nr how killings occur. what are the steps that you advise. what needs to happen for people not to kill each other with guns? >> we need a discussion between the two sides, the people who fear gun violence and support stronger gun control and the people like the nra who just resist all attempts to control weapons. now both president obama and mitt romney did agree on something in their last debate which was that quote that you had earlier, when obama said you have to go deeper and get into the communities where gun violence happens and make sure we catch that kind of impulse before it becomes reality. there are programs in cities

like chicago and elsewhere, even a cease-fire program it's called here in new york, where ex-gang members try to work with young people attempted by illegal guns that are all around to try to convince them it's a bad idea to go for a gun whenever you have a -- >> right. and look, without question, that both sides need come to the table. certain parties, perhaps more willing than others to come to that table but i'm not naming names. the book is "living with guns." craig whitney the author, thank you very much. >> thank you. >> thank you to the rest of our package today, josh greene, jay mcinnereny and karen finney. see you back here monday at noon eastern, 9:00 a.m. pacific when joined by michael fields, michael eric dyson, the "washington post's" ezra klein and ary melbourne. check out the newest feature on our facebook page, michael sc t

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